How To NOT Get Screwed Over As A Software Engineer

launch bombed. What's the plan in the business? Don't worry about it. This is like, you need to be quiet. This is my department.

You know, stop asking questions.

Alright. This is Dalton plus Michael, and today, we're gonna talk about how to not get screwed as a software engineer.

Interesting. Yeah. Tips, you know. We've we've noticed that a lot of the of technical folks sometimes get exploited. They kinda get ripped off by other folks. Evil business people. Yeah. It's kind of a bad pattern.

We're.

gonna talk about it. So who is this aimed at, Michael? Who is this video for? The the folks we're talking to. So we're talking to maybe your technical cofounder at a startup right now. Maybe you are a great engineer at a scaling up company. The guy that everyone comes to, the person who Yep. Always gets fixed,.

the woman who's always up late getting those text messages and having to Yeah. Or or you're at a really early stage startup Yes. But you're not a founder, a co founder. You're like a lead engineer or head of engineering or there's some title. Yes. And the whole company is like three people Yeah. But you're not a founder. You're not a founder.

Okay. There is the college student.

who all the MBAs go to to build their prototype. Yep. And then there's the Googler. Right? How did you describe it? It's the person.

that does the work that other people take credit for Yes. To get Promoted. Promoted in bonuses. Yes. It's the person that does the you know, actually producing the products that a lot of people stick their career on. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. So that's who we're talking. Yeah. So.

I think the thing that we're trying to.

really help you with is Yeah. We feel bad for you. So Yeah. So this this comes up a lot for us at YC where we read a lot of applications and we interview a lot of companies. Yes. And, we see folks where it's pretty clear what's going on. We can see it a mile away in the application Yes. That someone is getting exploited or ripped off.

And, it's usually the technical person. Yes. Right? And it feels bad to see just all of these applications come in Yes. And it's crystal clear what's going on. Yes. And so this is for you. Yes.

We.

would like to give you some questions to ask yourself to figure out whether you're being treated well or not. And I think that to be clear, we don't wanna presuppose. Right? There are a lot of people who are in great situations. We just wanna give you some tools. So let's talk about equity.

What are the questions people should ask themselves about whether they have enough equity, equity at all? This comes up a lot. I know you are a big proponent of this, Michael. But in general, something like equal equity is pretty common for startups that apply to to y c and is something we recommend.

And sort of the antipattern we might see is say there's two founders and the nontechnical business founder has 90% and the technical person has 10% or less. And, the explanation is basically just that the business founder had sharper elbows He's a negotiator. And was a better like, there's actually no justification for this. It was my idea. Yeah. Okay. Right? And so, there's really no good reason.

It's just that the business guy gets more for whatever case. Yes. And usually in those situations, you ended up with something much closer to even. Again, you give this advice. How how do you explain this when this happens? I I always just think that, like, the vast majority of the journey is ahead of you, not behind you. And you want your cofounders to feel like owners and partners. Yep.

And I always think about,.

you know, in the early days of our company, on Sunday night when the website went down, I couldn't fix it. And so we're gonna live in one of two worlds, the world where I get text and I have to, like, cajole people to fix it or the world where everyone feels like an owner and they get text and they wake up and they fix it. Right?

And I think a lot of people just don't understand that if you can make people inherently motivated they'll do far better work than if you fucking yell at them. So that's the.

founder, you know, do you have close to equal equity? Yeah. What does your equity look like? And does it make sense? Like, is the justification for whatever your equity is, does it make sense to you based on what you bring to the table and based on your actual responsibilities?

Now what about the early employee?

Well, the early employee notoriously kind of gets hosed on this stuff, especially if they're providing the work of an equal technical cofounder Yes. Yet they get 1% or less of the company. Again, is very common where you'll have two business founders, three business founders, you know Yes. And then they'll have someone that's, you know, lead engineer that is effectively Technical co founder.

Technical co founder, and they get, like, 1%.

not great. Yes. Not great. That's not a good pattern. I would say if you're in the scale up and you are the essential engineer, the test I would kinda ask myself is is if this thing works, are you gonna make a life changing amount of money?

And, you know, I would argue that, like, you know, that doesn't mean you necessarily should have as much equity as the founders or you're gonna have as much equity as someone who came in early. But it does mean that, like, if this thing actually IPOs or gets bought and you get, like, a pat on the back and, like, you know, a nice Christmas bonus, probably you're not in the right situation. Yeah.

Alright. That next group, the Googler. I think this one's actually much more interesting because I would argue that if you're the Googler, you're getting a bad deal if you're doing, like, a hundred hour weeks and grinding Yep. And like your boss or your boss's boss is getting like mega vacations and $10,000,000 a year packages.

and like promotions and da da da da. I would say on the flip side though, like if you've got good work life balance and Yeah. I think it's risk reward. This is a subtle point that Michael's making. I think it's for the opportunity cost that you're taking to not do something else Yes.

Are you getting a square deal versus if again, if you're working really really really hard, perhaps another thing would be better. Yes.

But, if you're if you're very happy with the trades you're making on work life balance and compensation, hey, man. Maybe Might be good. Yeah. It could be great for you. Yeah. You know? And then, I guess, you know, last but not least is the college student who, like, in most cases, isn't even isn't even offered equity. Like, that's like, you know, they're just they're just the typer.

You're the intern. Yeah.

You're our technical intern. Just do all of the work. Just do the thing. We're just the idea guys. Yes. Yes. So.

equity is one set of topics you can ask yourself in these roles. Another one and one that you brought up was kind of decision making process.

like, okay, we've established that you are doing a lot of the work. Yeah. It's basically, do you have a seat at the table?

And so, again, if you're trying to self diagnose, am I being exploited, as an engineer, as a technical person, is the whole point that the business people have a lot of meetings that you're not invited to and all decisions about everything are made by the business people, and you are basically used as a robot to write code. Yes. Probably not a great sign.

Probably a sign that you are you might be being exploited. Yes. Right? You're being used as Yes. Like a machine to write code and not a person with a brain. I think the the next thing you should be thinking about is kind of effort level.

You know, are you working these crazy hours, but everyone's on vacation in Aruba half the time? Right? Are your counterparts who are doing fundraising and sales and HR and all the other tasks within the company, are they grinding.

or are they not? Yep. Like, this is a self diagnosis thing, but it's really sad when you see someone in the world of technical cofounder and they really have to work their butt off. Yes. And, they're really showing up every day. Yes. And, the idea guy, or the salesperson, or the business expert, the fundraising expert Yeah. Actually isn't doing much.

Sometimes they're part time. Sometimes they're part time. And, man, that is such a vector for being exploited. And so, you should really feel from a self diagnosis perspective that, yeah, your counterparts are just as into it and there's just as much heart that they're bringing to the table as you are. And, if so, again, maybe you're maybe it's a great deal for Yeah.

I think that the the last two are kinda connected. This kind of like, is it working slash opportunity cost. Right? Like, one would argue that, like, you, because you're doing all this work, have an amazing ability to judge whether the company's working. Yep. And.

you should maybe trust your instincts there. Yep. And, you know, is it working? Right? Like, you might be exploited if you're being asked to do all this stuff and, like, the evidence is painfully obvious it's not working. Well, you're the technical person, so you notice the first.

The funny thing is this one of the technical person who does all the work is the one actually reading the analytics and like, hey, like, this our launch bombed. What's the plan in the business? Don't worry about it. This is like, you need to be quiet. This is my department.

You know, stop asking questions. And.

so Yeah. If it just seems like you're bringing your a game effort and doing all of the work Yes. And it's definitely not working Yes.

Probably might be a sign you're being exploited. Well, and this is even more of the case that the opportunity cost might not be worth it. Yep. Or you might be not leaving because you're afraid, but you know intellectually this thing isn't working. Yep. Alright. So, and like, don't let them finesse you. Again, is the the same.

person that convinced you that you getting, you know, one tenth of their equity is a great deal for you is the ones like, hey, I know it looks like we're not growing and we have no revenue Yes. And we're about to run out of money, But I got this. It's fine. Like, don't let that same suave person Yes.

Keep doing the same move on you over and over again. Yeah. It's it's weird because I never use the term gaslighting, but it is it's actually gaslighting. It's actually that. Okay. So I don't wanna paint too bad of a picture because on the flip side, we see situations that are.

Great. Yeah. More often than not. You know, the folks we fund. Y z. Yeah. Yeah. The folks we fund, it's mostly, like, a really awesome Yes.

Trade. So let's talk about situations where like things are going well. Right? Like you signs that this is great. I think one sign is from an opportunity cost perspective, you realize that you're at the best possible place in the world for the risk reward ratio. Yes. And, whether however you're being comped Yes. You're like, wow.

I'm getting a smoking deal. Yes. And, I know there's no better deal I can be doing and I'm proud. I feel privileged Yes. To be working on this team I am because they care just as much. Yeah. Like, if everyone feels like they're getting a great deal, that's a sign of a good culture. Yeah.

I also think if you feel like you're giving a given a lot of responsibility and a lot of opportunity to learn. Yep. I think most people don't realize that like,.

you can learn at a startup pace or you can learn at a Google pace and like a startup is an amazing opportunity to learn. So if you're getting better faster than your peers who are in big tech, you might be getting a really good deal. Especially, we see this a lot with people who learn a ton and then they go start their own company. Yep. And it's like, well, that startup was incredible for you.

Yeah. Even if it didn't work, you can get rich from it. That was like the best education you could have ever gotten. And, we see this also with immigration. Like, that startup or that company is getting you to the country you wanna be in or getting you the visa and then like It's a great deal. That might be getting you a great deal. So, that's like a really really big thing.

I also think there's this element of like, you're.

not exploited if you're part of the problem. Yes. Again, this is a subtle point. Let's see if we can explain it. It's basically, if it's not working and you have a seat at the table, it's on you, man. Yes. Yeah. Like, you can't just blame, hey, business guy.

Yeah. You're not pulling your weight because no one wants our thing. But, if you have a seat at the table, you're If you have equity with someone Yes. And you have a seat at the table in decision making Yes. Just because it's not working doesn't mean you get the right to blame other people. No. That's not cool. You know, and I think the last one that I would say is like,.

and this is a slightly dangerous one, but like when people are honest with you and it turns out to be that way. When people are like, this is gonna be the hardest job you've ever done, and then it turns out that you're working like crazy. Yeah.

Like, when the team you're coming into is extremely upfront with you about how it's going to be and it turns out their way and it's not good, it's not necessarily being exploited. Like, you made that choice. Yeah. You chose that. That's a really great point, man. Like,.

think about, expectation setting when you take any job Yes. Or when you go to school Yes. The people the the great professors or teachers or bosses, it's not that they tell you it's gonna be easy. No. It's that they tell you what's gonna happen. Yes. And, they're right. They're honest.

And, you're and you're like, wow. I really respect that you set my expectations well and I knew what I was walking into. Yes. And so again, you're if someone did an a plus job of expectation setting, you can't really hold you can't argue that they're exploiting you or that this is like not what you signed up for. No. Right? No. Alright.

So, I suspect I'm in a bad situation.

What do I do to fix it? If you think you might be in a bad situation, I would look at what are the other opportunities that you're taking an opportunity cost from doing. So, for instance, if you're at the big tech company and other people are getting tons of promotions because of your work, you probably are pretty well undervalued. Yep. And, you could be learning more.

And, so, I would explore starting your own company or going to working somewhere else. Yep. If you really want that seat at the table, my guess is you could find a job where you have way more a seat at the table when you're doing decision making.

I'll I'll say a step you could do even before that. You can ask for a seat at the table. That's true. I remember there was this great employee at at Justin TV, this guy named Tim, and he was disgruntled because the company wasn't doing well. Right? As disgruntled as he was, he actually would do the work to come up with ideas and to point out things that were wrong and to create fixes.

And, like, he took ownership. And what was interesting is that as he took ownership, he was given ownership. So it wasn't this weird so it wasn't like, oh, like, you're not at the table. It's like, come up with the smart ideas. Yeah. Maybe maybe you do have a maybe you are at the table and you're just not fucking participating Yep. Or taking responsibility.

That's a great point. And, we see this with equity splits because often, sometimes it'll just be, hey, have you all thought about maybe, like, or how did you come up with the equity splits? Well, it's, you know, ninety, ten. Well, why? Well, it's my idea. Well, you know, most of the work is ahead of you, not behind you. What if you went, like, equal? People are like, okay.

Yeah. Fine. It's actually not that hard to fix this stuff sometimes, shockingly. No. It's just they never had the conversation. Exactly. They almost expected.

the business person to do right by them or, like, gave up their, like, agency at all. And it's like, no. You have agency. Like and then I'll say, know, another thing is location. Like, sometimes you're in a place where your work isn't valued Yep. And there are other places where your work could be valued more whether that's geographic location company That's a great point.

I think the last one that I observe a lot is that sometimes you have to take a step backwards to take two steps forward. So like maybe you're stuck in a bad job and, like, you have a lot of responsibility, but you're not being given good compensation. You might have to go switch jobs in a place where you have less opportunity, less less responsibility, but better compensation.

You can develop a better network. Maybe you have to move. Maybe you have to Take risks. Yeah. Like like, maybe you have to do something that doesn't feel like you have the perfect next thing on your resume because it sets you up two day two moves down the line. Right? And I think sometimes people are like, look at their careers very linearly instead of saying like, it's the end that matter. Right?

It's like, can I retire, raise my kids, da da da da da da? And like, maybe the path to get there isn't just this linear step by step. So, anyways, what would be your last parting piece of advice for some of the specs there in this world? Look.

Technical people know your worth. And, if you're a really nice person, those are the people that tend to get ripped off the most. Yeah. Follow our handy checklist and find a place where you're appreciated and valued the way you should be because you have this amazing rare skill.

And for those business people listening to this, don't exploit folks. Be honest. Be upfront. Right? Like, make decisions that they're gonna that your people you work with are gonna be excited about today, but also tomorrow. Because like if that amazing tech person leaves your company, you're fucked.

Alright, Dalton. Great chat. Thanks.